This is a song I remember from very early childhood on BBC's Listen With Mother. I can't find any reference to it online. It was probably one of those very ephemeral things that was written for one episode of the programme, sung and forgotten ... except that I'm sure they sang it quite often. I can remember almost all of it except for part of one line. Whenever I'm walking in the rain, I find it going through my head.
Here are the lyrics:
Horniman and Sir,
Off we go together.
Horniman and Sir,
We don't mind the weather.
Dashing through the puddles,
Splashing through the rain,
[dah dah dah dah dumdy dah]
and off we go again!
If you happen to remember it, please get in touch! I'm beginning to think I'm the only person on the planet who remembers this song. Who wrote it? Who sang it?
[Edited 121017 to change the word "Todd" to "Sir"]
BREAKING NEWS! 24.12.17
With a great deal of help from Mary, I have acquired an audio recording of the original broadcast. I won't have time to deal with it properly over the next few busy days, but as a little Christmas present for everyone who's commented on this thread over the past seven years, here's the updated version of the verses. The sound is a bit blurry on some of the lines, but we're pretty sure it is as you can see here. Oh, and it's not HORNIMAN - it's HORNYMAN! (I've also added a few simple guitar chords if anyone fancies trying to play it. Afraid my skills don't quite reach to transcribing the piano part accurately - someone else is welcome to try that once we upload the audio.)Merry Christmas everyone!
122 comments:
I remember it as "Horniman and Sir"
I don't think it was listen with mother; I think it was a children's programme that was on on Saturdays around lunchtime or early afternoon (so not Uncle Mac). I don't think it ran for very long but Horniman and Sir was featured more than once. The names referred to one's left and right feet!
Oh Pat, thank you for that! There's more chance of my finding references to it on Google if I have the correct name. Funny, I've always thought of the second name as "Todd", and it never occurred to me that the two characters were feet. I must have been very small at the time! I don't suppose you remember the words for that middle line where I've just put, "dumpty dumpty dumpty dah", do you? That's been annoying me for years.
I remember 'Horniman and Sir' as well. My Mother used to sing it to me to keep walking when my young legs gor tired. Horniman and Sir referred to left and right feet.
I too remember it as 'Horniman and Sir', from my childhood in the fifties. I Googled it and this was the only result I found. My wife, slightly younger than I, thought I had made it up! I didn't know it referred to feet, but it makes sense, well, sort of!
I remember this too, but my memory of it is as something on 'Listen with Mother'. Googled it just now as the tune suddenly came into my head!
Thank heavens it's not just me. I have not thought of this song for 60 years and just this week I woke up and the first couple of lines of 'Horniman and Sir' were racing through my head.
I, too, remember this song well. And I had no idea it referred to feet either!
I think it was Listen with Mother. I definitely used to listen to that programme in Thornton Heath in the early post war years. I seem to recall that each programme contained a song, a story and another song. From time to time one of the songs would be "Horniman and Sir".
I could never make head nor tail of it and it wasn't a favourite of mine. But like several other people here, I suddenly found myself singing it to myself a few days ago - after an absence of several decades !!! I wonder if there's some sort of telepathy going on?
Oh, and I can't remember the missing line either. Indeed it's only the first four lines that I have any recollection of, though I remember it did go on after "never mind the weather".
Thanks for posting. And thanks to everyone else for all the memories. Happy days.
I, too, remember this song well. And I had no idea it referred to feet either!
I think it was Listen with Mother. I definitely used to listen to that programme in Thornton Heath in the early post war years. I seem to recall that each programme contained a song, a story and another song. From time to time one of the songs would be "Horniman and Sir".
I could never make head nor tail of it and it wasn't a favourite of mine. But like several other people here, I suddenly found myself singing it to myself a few days ago - after an absence of several decades !!! I wonder if there's some sort of telepathy going on?
Oh, and I can't remember the missing line either. Indeed it's only the first four lines that I have any recollection of, though I remember it did go on after "never mind the weather".
Thanks for posting. And thanks to everyone else for all the memories. Happy days.
I am fairly sure (and I do rememember this song) that it was on a short lived 'Listen with Father' because I do agree that it was at the weekend not the weekday 'Listen with Mother'
Also I am sure it was Sir not Todd in their version.
I am fairly sure (and I do rememember this song) that it was on a short lived 'Listen with Father' because I do agree that it was at the weekend not the weekday 'Listen with Mother'
Also I am sure it was Sir not Todd in their version.
After seeing it in print I now wonder if the programme was 'Listen on Saturday' rather than 'Listen with Father'
Gosh I don't remember a weekend edition of "Listen with ...." but I was so young at the time I probably didn't differentiate between weekdays and weekends anyway. I know they used the song quite often - certainly often enough for it to stick in one's head for several decades.
The missing line is....."Horniman and Sir" and I'm sure it was on Listen with Mother from time to time.
I don't think "Horniman and Sir" would fit the rhythm of that line, Jane - it's a sort of "dumpty dumpty dumpty dah" rhythm.
I keep wanting to make up words to fit. Something like, "home we go along the road," would work, but I don't think that was it.
Ally, I don't remember it at all but Google Books throws up an interesting reference by someone who also can't remember that line: John Simpson in his memoir Days from a Different World.
You might want to send your query to my pal Nigel at http://www1c.btwebworld.com/quote-unquote/
Laura
Ally, I don't remember it at all but Google Books throws up an interesting reference by someone who also can't remember that line: John Simpson in his memoir Days from a Different World.
You might want to send your query to my pal Nigel at http://www1c.btwebworld.com/quote-unquote/
Laura
I remember this song from Listen With Mother, and I thought it was part of a story about a tramp, and 'Horniman' and 'Sir' were his names for his legs/feet. It is so good to find other people who remember it too, for so long I've thought I was the only one.
The trouble with the words is that I think I've made up my own over the years to fill in the gaps, but this is what I sing:
Horniman and Sir, off we go together,
Horniman and Sir, we don't mind the weather,
Splashing [dashing?] through the rain,
Trudging through the snow,
As long as we're together, everywhere we go.
Horniman and Sir, off we go together,
Horniman and Sir, we don't mind the weather.
I remember this song from 'Listen with Mother'. As I recall, the missing line is ' getting covered with greasy mud'.
Hello. I remember this song from Listen with Mother. I recall the missing line as 'getting covered with greasy mud'
I remembered it as "Horniman and Si", I must have mis-heard the word "Sir", or been too young to know the word and substituted something else. I had no idea it was feet, and I don't think my mother ever twigged that, either. I was born in 1953, so presumably would have heard it on the radio in 1955/6-ish onwards (and probably on "Listen with Mother" as I don't think I listened to children's programmes at the weekend except Uncle Mac when I was a bit older).
I think it was actually sung on 'Listen on Saturday' a short-lived spin-off of 'Listen with Mother'.
I can only remember that it was sung by a man, and it must have been George Dixon.
My mother hated this song, but she would never tell me why. Now, I can probably guess.
Like many nursery rhymes it is oddly subversive.
My three-year-old self tells me that it doesn't mean feet, silly, those were the names of the little boy's wellington boots!
I definitely remember this being sung on Listen With Mother. I just thought about it the other day and wondered if anyone might recall it, as no-one I mentioned it to ever had! I remember a man with a rather elderly voice called George Dixon singing it on the programme, and that it was supposed to be about a pair of feet. It was definitely Horniman, but I wondered if the other name was actually Searle?
Been looking for the words to tis for ageas. Can only remeber the first few lines too. When i repeat is to my friends they just laugh at me!
I recall Horniman and Sir from my childhood, too. It must have been some time between 1957-1959, the years I was in England. For some reason, I connected it with Horniman's Tea. No idea why, I was too young to drink tea at the time.
I recall Horniman and Sir from my childhood, too. It must have been some time between 1957-1959, the years I was in England. For some reason, I connected it with Horniman's Tea. No idea why, I was too young to drink tea at the time.
You're not alone! I remember Horniman and Sir. It was on Listen with Mother around 1957-59, when I would have been 3 to 5 years old. I always understood it to be about boots, though whether Wellington boots or not I don't know. The song has often come back to me over the years, but I can only remember the tune of the first four lines. I'll get someone to play me the rest from your transcription (thank you!). Like a previous poster's mother, I always feel it is a little dark in tone, even though it strives for cheerfulness (I mean, what odd names!). It must have been George Dixon's voice and the sparse piano accompaniment that contributed to this too. I always associate it with the strange song that ended "hobble-dee, and down into a ditch!" accompanied by a scary, banging downward run on the lower notes of the piano to illustrate the fall. Googling the line, I see it's from the song "This Is the Way the Ladies Ride" (so no connection) and it all comes flooding back. What weird stuff we were served up to entertain us by Auntie BBC sometimes!
I also remember this song (sung by a man) on a children's wireless programme in the 50's. Strange how something like this sticks in the brain. John Simpson mentions it and quotes the words in his memoirs "Days from a Different World: A Memoir of Childhood".
Hi there
I recall this from the early 1960s, being sung quite often on Listen with Mother.
I remember the lyrics as this:
Horniman and Sir
Off we go together
We don't mind the weather
Horniman and Sir
Dashing through the puddles
Splashing through the rain
Horniman and Sir
Off we go again
Have you asked the BBC if they have a recording of it?
I'm sure if they cut a CD with old songs like this or a DVD with Bleep and Booster, One Wheel on My Wagon, Right Said Fred etc with the proceeds going to Children In Need they'd raise a tidy sum!
I remember Horniman & Sir from Listen With Mother in the 1960s. Despite it being one of my favourites, I can't recall the dumpty dumpty dumpty dum line either. I have a vague memory of it being something like 'Round the corner, down the hill', though that could be pure imagination. Perhaps there were no words to that part, only music?
I think the man who sang this song was called George Dixon. The ladies who introduced the programme and read the stories - "Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin" - were Daphne Oxenford and Julia Lang.
But I still can't remember all the lyrics of the song!
Trevor Lockwood
So glad to have found this! My mother always sang this to me and I sing it to my little boy but I thought it was "Morny man and sir off we go together..." and only knew the first four lines. I have sent my mother this link!
I do not recall the origin but parts my mother sang to me born in Oct 59 .Horniman and sir. Off we go together.Horniman and sir never mind the weather. We just strode on with our woad on. Never mind if we're rained or snowed on. We'd be happy with our woad on de da da de da cannot recall the last line
I have just come to this conversation (June 2016) and I am so glad to have found out more about this mysterious song. I remember it vividly from my youth but I could never clearly make out what the first line was. Horniman certainly, but alas the rather strangulated tenor hid the secret of of Horniman's companion. After sixty years I now begin to crack the code! Thank you all.
I too remember this from Listen with Mother in the early 1950s and both my mother and I sang it to my children in the 1970s. As far as I remember it went:
Horniman and Sir
Off we go together
Horniman and Sir
We don’t mind the weather
Splashing through the puddles
Never mind the rain
On our backs we’ll carry you
Over the slippery ???
This would fit with Horniman and Sir being feet/legs/boots, but I’m not sure of ‘slippery’ and can’t think what the last word would be. I can’t remember any more lines except that it ended with –
Horniman and Sir
Now we’re safe at home!
With the music reversing the notes for the last line ie D back to G (if following the music key above). Unfortunately my mother was the one who had a fantastic memory for words, but she passed away 3 years ago, so I have lost that wonderful resource for childhood memories.
I also remember the ‘down into the ditch’ song also from Listen with Mother. When we visited my grandmother we had a long walk from the bus down a country road with a verge crossed by frequent shallow drainage ditches. To keep me moving on the walk my mother used to get me to pretend to ride a horse and she would sing the different verses while I either jumped over or into the ditches, depending which verse she was singing moving to the different rhythms of the song. I seem to remember she invented other verses too to keep the interest going!
"On our backs we'll carry you," does sound familiar! But what to rhyme with "rain?" "Plain?" Doesn't really make sense. What about, "down the slippery lane?" Yeah, I know, I'm just making it up now!
Although I can't help with which radio programme it was on, I think I can nail the time of day. I remember hearing it at boarding school when we tinies were gathered in the Housemother's parlour. That would have been at about 5pm, give or take an hour.
Caroline Neal a couple of years ago posted that she also remembered 'This is the Way the Ladies Ride', with the tenor voice singing it. This song had a rather depressing effect on me as I wondered what happened to the horse after it had fallen into the ditch. Summary execution and the Knackers Yard was the most likely outcome, in my somewhat pessimistic view of life. I was a sensitive child.
Amazing, I have made several searches in the past to try and find this song remembered from childhood.I had always thought it to be Horniman and Serb and in my imagination it referred to two great plough horses.
I too remember this song and I am sure that Horniman and Sir were indeed Wellington boots.
Mary's version (14 May 2015) is the one I remember almost exactly as she has written it, with the exception that the second Horniman and Sir came after the line "Off we go together"
LOL ! Just seen reference to ‘down into the ditch’ song by PMM (25 July 2016)and I remember this one too.
This is the way the Ladies ride
Tit-trot,trit-tot, trit trot.
This is the way the Ladies ride
Tit-trot,trit-tot, trit trot.
This is the way the Gentlemen ride,
Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop.
This is the way the Gentlemen ride,
Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop.
This is the way the Old Men ride',
Hobble deee....Hobble deee....Hobble dee - and DOWN in a ditch.
At which point the knees are parted and the child (hands firmly held by the adult) is allowed to 'drop' through.
Good Lord Hornimann has been bugging me for the passed 3 weeks.and now I remember this is the way the ladies ride.. creeping ivy I must have been 3 to 5 years old. I know I was a radio BBC addict. So glad to find out it wasn't all i my mind!!!
'Creeping Ivy' gives you away as a Navy Lark addict!
Your secret is out!
LOL..Round the Horne..Men from the Ministry, Beyond our Ken.Still live in the good old oldies days
Yes all still being broadcast on Radio 4 Extra. I doubt they get repeat fees though.
I was looking for this song as it was a favourite of my sister Jennie's and mine when we were young. Jennie passed away last year and I was hoping to find a recording that could be played at her funeral but unfortunately couldn't get one anywhere. My daughter Amy recorded a version of the song with the bits of lyric and tune I could remember. I thought you might find it interesting, so a link is below.
https://soundcloud.com/laura-v-ross/horniman-and-sir
Thank you so much Laura, that is lovely to hear!
That's a lovely recording, Laura. Amy has a sweet voice, just perfect for this sort of song. Very sorry to hear about your sister.
It's funny just how much hearing it again has helped. I am pretty sure the missing Dum De Dum line is just a repetition of 'Horniman and Sir' and this is my best effort at the whole thing:-
Horniman and Sir
We don’t mind the weather
Horniman and Sir
Off we go together
Walking in the sunshine
Splashing through the rain
Horniman and Sir
Off we go again
Horniman and Sir
We don’t mind the weather
Horniman and Sir
Off we go together
Walking in the sunshine
Splashing through the rain
Horniman and Sir
As long as we’re together
I know the final 'together' looks like it does not fit well but I remember it being rather drawn out on a falling note. It may seem rather fanciful but it seemed to suggest friendship.
Over all the years of Listen with Mother I don't remember a man being on it so my vote is definitely for George Dixon on the short lived Listen on Saturday.
I think the line goes:
On our backs we'll carry you safely home again.
However, I'm pretty sure there was another verse!
Though born in the fifties, I don't remember this song from my childhood, but from a children's record we used to play when my children were young in the 70s
Yes, it was "Listen with Mother" although we used to listen to it at School on a wonderful old radio in 1959/60. Miss Stewart my teacher would make a great drama of turning this radio on at 2 o'clock and we would wait eagerly for the programme to begin. I remember both "Horniman and Sir" and "This is the way the Ladies Ride" clearly as I do the closing music from the Dolly Suite by Faure. I once has a severe upset stomach when this music was playing and was too scared to tell Miss Stewart. Now I get the same feeling whenever I hear the piece! Lol. Happy Days!
I think the missing line was:
"Don't be frightened, don't be scared"
For here we go again.
I'm sure they were wellies.
Just found this conversation. Horniman and Sir has bugged me for years because I've never been able to recall that particular line either. There's some weird collective amnesia going on! It was certainly played on Saturdays because I was always a bit frightened, as a very small child in the mid-fifties, of things I heard on that programme, including this song, which I too found very creepy for some reason I can't imagine now, although I loved the weekday Listen with Mother. I never told anyone that I was scared but couldn't resist listening despite chills in the spine. All kinds of things seem terrifying when you're five, like the pictures in Bobby Bear annuals! Does anyone remember a really sinister song about an old "with a coat all made of leather"- another Saturday offering. It's so often the scary things that stick around long after they've lost their power.
Bunta
Early one morning when windy was the weather
there I met an old man dressed all in leather.
With a strap going under his chin, chin, chin.
You are right it was terrifying, particularly as there was an old man who who wore a leather flying helmet and just stood at the end of our street in the fog.
As I was drifting off to sleep I remembered the first line correctly so was able to look it up in the Oxford book of Nursery Rhymes:-
One misty, moisty morning,
When cloudy was the weather,
There I met an old man
Clothed all in leather,
Clothed all in leather,
With cap under his chin.
How do you do, and how do you do,
and how do you do again.
Incredibly it goes on to say that this is the first of fifteen stanzas of The Wiltshire Wedding between Daniel Do-Welland Doll the Dairy -Maid. With the consent of her old Father Leathercoat.
Oh yes! Now I remember that! We were always talking about "misty moisty mornings" in our family, and we often did the "how do you do, and how do you do, and how do you do again," thing too, though I'd forgotten where they came from. How intriguing! I wonder if the rest of the poem is out there somewhere?
Yes it turns out they are!
One misty moisty morning when cloudy was the weather
I met with an old man a-clothed all in leather
He was clothed all in leather with a cap beneath his chin
Singing how do you do and how do you do and how do you do again
This rustic was a thresher as on his way he hied
And with a leather bottle fast buckled by his side
He wore no shirt upon his back but wool unto his skin
Singing how do you do and how do you do and how do you do again
I went a little further and there I met a maid
A-going a-milking, a-milking Sir she said
Then I began to compliment and she began to sing
Saying how do you do and how do you do and how do you do again
This maid her name was Dolly clothed in a gown of grey
I being somewhat jolly persuaded her to stay
And straight I fell a-courting her in hopes her love to win
Singing how do you do and how do you do and how do you do again
I having time and leisure, I spent a vacant hour
A-telling of my treasure while sitting in the bower
With many kind embraces I stroke her double chin
Singing how do you do and how do you do and how do you do again
I said that I would married be and she would be my bride
And long we should not tarry and twenty things beside
I'll plough and sow and reap and mow and you shall sit and spin
Singing how do you do and how do you do and how do you do again
Her parents then consented, all parties were agreed
Her portion thirty shillings, we married were with speed
Then Will the piper he did play whilst others dance and sing
Saying how do you do and how do you do and how do you do again
Then lusty Ralph and Robin with many damsels gay
Did ride on Roan and Dobbin to celebrate the day
And when they met together their caps they off did fling
Singing how do you do and how do you do and how do you do
And how do you do again
Thanks for this reminder, now it comes back to me. Amazing that fourteen more stanzas were written.The rest of the saga probably is somewhere. I was always baffled about the cap under the chin. I had a bonnet which tied under the chin but couldn't imagine a man wearing it. A flying helmeted man would have fazed me altogether. I also remember a lot of "misty, moisty mornings" in my Devon childhood - these old rhymes have a very expressive turn, though this one is still vaguely disquieting.
Steeleye Span recorded it:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SacU_M1seD4
Brilliant! I like the mix of romance "kind embraces"though not over sentimental with the double chin, and prudence - her thirty shilling portion exactly noted. It's actually quite a jolly tale after all.
Oh yes, I'd forgotten about the Steeleye Span version! Rather ashamed of that, as I'm a big fan and follower of the band, and Maddie Prior is based within driving distance of here and we often see them at local gigs.
I'm going to be singing that for the rest of the day now that I remember the tune ...
I've just been listening to Steeleye Span's "Misty Moisty Morning", great stuff, I'd no idea anyone had recorded it.It's good to have a maddening, persistent niggle sorted after ??? years. Thanks and keep smiling!
Does anybody remember the Taylor and his mouse..something like...A Taylor bought a mouse one day, hi diddle up to feeble. Hi diddleumtom Tatum tamtum through the town of Ramsey hi did
E umtom over the Lee hi diddleumtom mee oh. Then for some reason the Taylor thought his mouse would die..hi diddle etc..he baked it in an apple pie hi diddle umtom etc
NIgel - try this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tailor_and_the_Mouse
If anyone wants to listen to the little Horniman and Sir song, here it is:
https://soundcloud.com/laura-v-ross/horniman-and-sir
Nice version! But I'd love to hear the original. I still think there are some missing words.
I agree this version is well worth hearing, for one thing the tempo is right and I think that is what makes me think there is still a line missing before 'and off we go again'. Also, I am none too sure that the BBC Listen on Saturday version used 'and off we go again', it sounds unfamiliar.
Yes, I agree, there's just 'something' that's not quite right. I always understood the names were for shoes, not feet.
That penultimate line seems elusive, even John Simpson in his 'Days from a Different World' can't remember it but he does recall, 'Hob shoe hob.' which delighted me to read and sing again (isn't memory wonderful?)
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=qUcSMHPLDCkC&pg=PT94&lpg=PT94&dq=%22Horniman+and+Sir%22&source=bl&ots=WEPBALp8Kz&sig=335OXmqpZyxbp3YL83PuMuj8TpY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkqfaAst_WAhVGx7wKHY5TDCMQ6AEIQjAE#v=onepage&q=%22Horniman%20and%20Sir%22&f=false
He confirms it was 'Listen with Mother', my recollection too as that was the only children's programme I listened to until much later.
Speaking of John Simpson: his book is about my era, I was born in 1947 and I too have written a book about those years growing up in the North of England just after the war. Although I am a published author, I haven't sent this book for publication, it's mainly for my family's amusement although a few friends, New Zealanders, have read it and say they have remarkably similar memories - but without the bombing !!
But it's astonishing (or was to me) how much I could recall once I began thinking about it. Memories from well over 65 years ago came back. Like dominoes set up on their ends, each one lead to another. So I would encourage anyone to write things down, for their family's sake, as when we are gone, so are those memories. Who washes in a peggy tub or uses a mangle? Is milk still delivered anywhere in churns on the back of a horse and cart? The world has changed but we are living history.
I like this version of the song - it seems less frightening than it did sung by a man when I was three! - but there are definitely words missing between "dashing through the rain" and "off we go again". It's really been annoying me these past few days. "Up the road and down the lane" comes into my mind now, but I suspect I might have made it up rather than remembered it.Very strange that we all blank on the same line.
I've written to Mr Turnip of Whirligig, the expert on things BBC from the 40's onward, he may know. Of course it's possible there wasn't another line - it scans quite well without words and may just have had a musical marching-walking line there.
I don't know whether or not you have seen the BBC Genome database which holds information from Radio Times.
I have searched it and found these "Listen on Saturday" programs which mention "horny-man and sir"
http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/search/0/20?adv=0&q=%22Horny-man%22&media=all&yf=1923&yt=2009&mf=1&mt=12&tf=00%3A00&tt=00%3A00#search
From this you have the dates of broadcast and should be able to email BBC Archives at heritage@bbc.co.uk and ask if there is anything in the records which lists the lyrics of the song. Make sure that you tell them the dates as the records are held chronologically.
Oh I love the way so many of us are haunted by this song and its missing, ghost lyrics.
WhirligigTV - I've done just as you suggested and emailed the BBC Archives, so if anything useful turns up, I will of course post it here. Thanks for that!
I must amend the actual music at the top to reflect the fact that my memory of "Todd" was probably wrong, and replace it with "Sir."
Nice to get confirmation that it was on Listen on Saturday as some of us suspected and we now know who sang it too. I would maintain that the spelling should be Horniman rather than that used on the BBC page. I know I always connected it mentally with the Horniman's tea we had at home in the 50s.
Am crossing my fingers and toes that the BBC archive will produce the actual lyrics, or better still a recording of the song.
I was born in 1958 and think I was about 4 when I heard the song. So maybe 1962 . . wonder how much patience the archivists have for searching through years of Listen With Mother and/or Listen on Saturday
Bit of advice - don't google 'Horny man and Sir' . . .
Ally, you were not wrong
http://solwaynotes.blogspot.co.nz/2010/11/horniman-and-todd.html
I've never heard of 'Listen on Saturday' but that's not surprising as apart from "Listen with Mother' when I was a pre-schooler and during school holidays until I was 6, I didn't get to hear the radio unless my parents wanted to - fairly standard behaviour I suppose :-)
Isn't this fun? I feel as if we're investigative journalists :-)
I have a vague memory of "Listen on Saturday." Well, there were different children's programmes on a Saturday anyway. Uncle Mac? I liked that one.
It is indeed fun! I do hope we can track down the definitive answer eventually!
I have just had an odd thought, has anyone approached the Horniman Museum in London about this ? It is just the sort of odd thing they may know.
From the Listen on Saturday listing on Genome I saw that Ann Driver was responsible for the music. Professor Google reveals that there's an Ann Driver Trust, so I have written (see below).
Dear Ms Neary
A number of people with fond memories of the BBC's 'Listen With Mother' and 'Listen on Saturday' are keen to recall the lyrics to a children's walking song called 'Horniman and Sir' broadcast in the 1950's and 60's. (It is also spelt Horny-man at times.)
The programme listing in the BBC online archive Genome credits Ann Driver for the music.
I wondered if you know whether there is an archive for Ann Driver's work, or if you knew of a family member I might contact.
Many thanks
Ally - anything back from the BBC Archive?
Mary - yes, after a bit of a wait I received a helpful email recently, which I'll copy here very soon! They couldn't give me any more actual lyrics, but passed on some new avenues to pursue. (I've been a bit busy...)
The Ann Driver thing is interesting. I hope you get a useful response.
Sou'wester - being a Scot living in the North of England I wasn't aware of the Horniman Museum, but you never know, eh?
Yay! Thanks Ally.
I'll give Horniman Museum a call tomorrow. Will also ask a folk singer friend if they know the song. I learnt today that it is in the genre 'Walking Songs'.
Interesting that Ann Driver's husband was a poet. Wonder if he penned the song?!?
That's a good theory about A.D's Husband writing it. That would explain why there is so little about it anywhere else.
So grateful - had a reply from Penny Neary of the Ann Driver Trust.
Life very diffcult now as have all fingers and toes crossed.
Dear Ms Ellis,
Thank you very much for your comment on the Ann Driver Trust website.
Unfortunately I do not know more about the song, ‘Horneyman and Sir’. I am sure you have seen the website http://solwaynotes.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/horniman-and-todd.html indeed I expect you have contributed to it. I was particularly interested in the last comment, suggesting that Ann Driver’s husband might have written the lyrics. Since he was a poet, Trevor Blackmore, this seems a distinct possibility.
I am forwarding your email to two of our Trustees, one of whom knew Ann Driver, and the other who holds some of her original manuscripts. I will let you know if they can add any further information.
I am very glad to hear that you have fond memories of ‘Listen with Mother’. So do I, and of ‘Music and Movement’ which Ann Driver also recorded for the BBC, and which was broadcast to many schools.
With best wishes,
Penny Neary
Finally found time to copy the email I received from Louise North, Archivist at the BBC Sound Archives. Sheds a bit more light, I think!
She says:
____________________________________
... Sadly I haven't been able to find the lyrics for this song, but I discovered that the writer was a gentleman by the name of Christopher a Becket Williams.
[not Trevor Blackmore then!]
The BBC retains a recording of this song, from a Listen on Saturday programme, which means you should be able to arrange a listening appointment for research purposes through the British Library Sound Archive. Their email address is listening@bl.uk and their website is:
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/inrrooms/stp/sound/listening.html
The only other suggestion I can make to aid you in your quest for the lyrics is to identify and contact any libraries or archives who may have collections of children's music. To this end you may find The Archives Hub (https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/) and 'Discovery' from The National Archives (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/) helpful.
_________________________________
Now the recording must be out of copyright by now, you'd think? Surely if they have a copy, it should be in the public domain and not only should we be able to listen to it, but be provided with a copy for our own use. If I can get to listen to it, it should be ok to record it while listening, but obviously I wouldn't put it up here without permission.
Well done Ally, this lends a whole new dimension to this little song. Oh, how I remember galloping around the school hall in vest and navy knickers to Anne Driver's encouraging voice. "Small as a a little mouse.....and now we're as tall as trees...can you touch the sky, children?"
When I wrote my memoirs of those days just after the war, I included this scenario.
One boy in my class told the teacher, 'I don't mind being a tree but if yer think I'm goina be a little flower, tha's got another think comin"
Hi Ally - thanks so much for the update. That is great news. If listening to the recording means physically going somewhere, might I join you?
Meanwhile, more good news - we are closing in on actually hearing the song. Penny Neary at the Ann Driver Trust has been working hard on our behalf. "One of our trustees, Sophia Rahman has looked through the music she holds, but cannot find this song. Robert has looked in various books to see whether Trevor Blackmore wrote the words, but it seems not."
So she contacted pianist Robin Zebaida, a former pupil of Ann Driver, who replied "I DO remember this song. I once had a large box of lp records of BBC recordings of Ann's, though I am not sure if I will be able to locate them now. I seem to remember it was the first track on one of those records, with a seemingly endless number of verses! I will have a look and see if I can find anything."
Happy Christmas one and all, and a Horniman and Sir 2018!
Just read up on getting a Reader Pass, and about visiting the British Library Sound Archive. Anyone else fancy going together? I'm happy to co-ordinate dates etc. If so, please email me on maryellis83(at)hotmail.com
The online catalogue has three entries for Listen on Saturday. One has
Content Notes "She'll be coming round the mountain.- Fine green peas.- There was an old man who said "Well!".- Tractor song.- Walking game.- March of British Grenadiers.- March of tin soldiers.- Trotting tune.- Galloping tune.- Stage coach tune.- Fast running tune.- Skipping tune.- Christmas lullaby.- The ants and the grasshopper.- I gave my love a cherry.- I know where I'm going.- When Joseph was a young man.- The raggle taggle gypsies oh!"
Another entry notes it is an "Incomplete programme" from 1953 and has "Four short piano pieces, 2nd played on the celesta. The first title is an arrangement of "Over the hills and far away""
As for getting copies, it says "The British Library can provide copies of audio recordings held in the collections to users who are able to obtain the appropriate copyright clearance."
Hot off the press - Robin, Ann Driver's pupil has just emailed me a recording! Please email me if you'd like me to forward it to you, maryellis83(at)hotmail.com.
I will transcribe the lyrics later. The line none of us can remember is a bit hard to hear but sounds like:
'Covered all in greasy mud, here we are again'
though it might be
'Fah la la with greasy mud, . . ."
Hornyman and Sir
Words and Melody by Christopher A'Beckett Williams
Arranged by Ann Driver
Sung by Elaine Connan and Martin Best
Now, better go and finish my Christmas shopping . . . feel like wearing my wellies in celebration!
Hi Mary - that all sounds very hopeful! Not sure if I can get to the British Library any time soon though - I live in NW Cumbria and rarely get anywhere near London. However, we do have relations in Oxfordshire whom we visit, so it's possible I might be able to arrange something next time we're down there. But if you, or anyone else who's a bit nearer, can go there and write out the words, that would be enough to satisfy me until I can get there and hear it for myself. Better still, of course, if we can get hold of a copy of the recording!
Thanks for the tremendous help, Mary! I've put the updated version of the first verse above, and I'll deal with the rest after Christmas. I think you're right about "covered all with greasy mud."
I can't see any updated version Ally
Live anywhere near Dufton? My cousin lives there.
Hi Zola - I added it to the bottom of the original post. I've left the earlier version of the tune with lyrics, but added an updated version you can see if you scroll down a bit.
Having listened to this repeatedly today (great accompaniment to wrapping presents) I now think the line is 'Covered o'er with greasy mud'.
I also now think with the 'clopping' sound effects, that Hornyman and Sir are two horses.
Since Christopher A'Beckett Williams lived from 1890 to 1956, this would make sense.
Hornyman and Sir
Off we go together
Hornyman and Sir
We don’t mind the weather
Missing all the puddles
Splashing through the rain
Covered o’er with greasy mud
Here we are again
Hornyman and Sir
Off we go together
Hornyman and Sir
We don’t mind the weather
Sliding off the glassy ice
And trudging through the snow
Sleet and hail are whipping down
Yet cheerily we go
Hornyman and Sir
Off we go together
Hornyman and Sir
We don’t mind the weather
No need to be frightened
We’ll see you safe and sound
On our backs we’ll carry you
Up the slippery ground
Hornyman and Sir
Off we go together
Hornyman and Sir
We don’t mind the weather
(whistling)
Now we’re safe at home
Dufton - no, I hadn't even heard of it and had to Google it! Seems to be over on the east side of the county near Appleby. (Nice area btw.) We're in West Cumbria, near the Solway coast, a few miles from Maryport and Cockermouth. (Hence the name of the blog - Notes by the Solway!)
Oh well done Mary! I couldn't quite make out a couple of words in the second verse, and yes, "covered o'er" sounds much better. I love the idea of their being horses - it makes perfect sense!
I'll try to notate the instrumental verse when I have time, as it doesn't stick to the usual melody, and makes the whole thing more interesting.
Scroll to the original post and you'll see, at the bottom, before the comments start, I've now added all the verses and some simple guitar chords (these do not necessarily correspond exactly to the piano accompaniment, but they work if you fancy singing it.) There's a whistled part which I'll transcribe at some point.
I'm still really excited at getting this on Christmas Eve! Thanks so much Mary! :-D
Yes - that's how I thought 'slipp'ry' should be spelt after yet more listening!
Thanks for the guitar music - will be very welcome when I meet up with my scything buddies for our winter gathering in January, when we'll be having a sing song together.
I'd say 'thanks to everyone' - you started the blog Ally, and then eventually one thing led to another.
Very satisfying, and a joyful note for Christmas!
xM
This is such a delightful little song. I'll teach it to my grandson. Thanks for all the hard work, research and perseverance. Our family has a motto which you have truly lived up to, 'Never give up, never give in,' I believe it's translated from
Numquam desistas, numquam dare in.
Happy Christmas to all.
Yes, definitely worthwhile persevering! I'm a great believer in allowing things to happen slowly sometimes. There'll be more on here once I transcribe the instrumental part, but I think I need to get the Christmas holidays over with first!
Yesterday - Christmas Eve - was a remarkable day for finding lost lyrics, actually. There was an old French Christmas carol I'd been searching for, for a while, and only knew the English translation. Now I've been using the internet since about 1997, so it should have occurred to me before now, but until yesterday I hadn't thought of searching for the French lyrics online. Of course, it's rather an obscure thing, and I couldn't find it, but I put out a general enquiry among my friends on Facebook and before the end of the day, I found myself reading a scanned version of a 19th century French songbook containing just the lyrics I was looking for!
So, on the same day, two sets of lyrics landed in my lap - one set that I'd been after for 7 years, and the others, that I'd only just enquired about (although I'd first wondered about when I was still at school). Isn't the internet great?
Hope everyone's enjoyed a most splendid Christmas.
Nearly the end of Boxing Day for me; I live in the future :-)
Would love to see the French chant de Noël as I used to sing them at school. No rush, just get the holidays over first.
If you were using the Internet in the 90's maybe you were a 'BBSer'? Bulletin Boards were the precursor to the world wide web in the days before browsers and one had to program the computer with a string of commands.
I loved that and all the HTML to produce effects.
Dim and distant glory days...... :-)
Well now, having finally discovered the name of the album on which our song can be found, I tracked down my own copy on eBay, and it's just arrived this morning. Nice clean LP, looks little used. I've got a cable connected from my record deck to my PC, so I can make a clean mp3 of the Hornyman track, and transcribe the music and lyrics as accurately as I can. After that, if anyone wants to hear it, I'll send them a copy of the mp3, but I don't think I ought to publish it here until I can find out whether it contravenes copyright in some way.
Happy New Year!
Zola the Gorgon - in response to your query - I never used bulletin boards, much as I'd have liked to! I knew about them, but was strapped for cash back then. Took me several months to save up for my first BBC 'B' and I could never afford an acoustic coupler or the phone bills that I knew would ensue! First got online about 1996, and created my first website about a year later having got the basics of html figured out.
My recollection of hearing this song was on BBC School Radio in the 1950s, on the much-detested Music and Movement programme, but I'm now thinking that memory is probably mistaken. It pops into my mind every time I cut my toenails... weird.
Ooh I enjoyed Music and Movement! Got us out of the classroom into the hall for a bit, and there were always interesting songs to learn or things to do. Mind you, I suspect some of my classmates felt the same as you did!
As I now have an actual LP containing the song, though, I know it definitely came from Listen with Mother.
Actually, since it's more than 50 years since the composer died, the song may be out of copyright, so I could probably upload an audio file of it. I've had no complaints about publishing the music and lyrics so far.
I agree, we had 'Music and Movement' at school and it definitely wasn't on that.
It was definitely “Listen with Mother”. I remember it well, listening to it in my Reception class at school. I seem to remember the programme went out at 1.45pm and there was great ceremony as the teacher turned the radio on at that time every day!
' Listen with Mother, was at 1.45. It was known as 'Bingy Bong' in our house which we all shrieked out at the first note of the signature. Who remembers 'Listen on Saturday'? It seemed not to be around so regularly and I didn't like as much as cosy old LWM, they seemed to specialise in what I thought were creepy songs, one about an old man in a cap standing outside in 'Misty, moisty weather'. How bizarre are childhood perceptions!
I remember Horniman and Sir. I didnt like the song very much as for some reason or another, I thought they were two old men with walking sticks!
I wonder why it was called Horniman and Sir? Athough I didnt like the song, I still find myself singing it when walking in the rain, like my Mum used to
Precisely what happened to me this morning! The human brain is epic 😎
My late mother, born 1921, dec'd 2009 age 87, used to sing this song to myself and my sister in the 1950's. Amongst other things mother was a Sunday school teacher for the infants class of our local Methodist chapel in Flint, Wales. For her those early days when my sister and were very young and the chapel had a reasonable attendance of youngsters were amongst the happiest days of her life. My sister was born in 1951, myself 1949. Often kept meaning to ask mother her about it but somehow never go round to it.
Too late now.
Good to know I haven't been dreaming it from nowhere 65 years later.
Duncan Stewart
Henllan, Denbighshire, Wales
Nice story, Duncan Stewart! And I know Flint, or at least, I knew it, once. My pal and I used to go there as teenagers to visit a relation of hers. I have happy memories of the place.
I too definitely recall hearing Horniman and Sir being sung on Listen With Mother, which we were told was about a pair of feet but I couldn't understand why one had a name and the other was called Sir! Was one of the feet superior to the other? I've never heard this sung anywhere else, nor another shorter song that was sung on the same programme. This went 'Here we go up up up, and here we go down down down, and here we go round the dairy'. I have no idea what that was all about either!
I just started humming the tune and then remembered some of the lyrics. Took me back to the early 60s and listen with mother.
You are most certainly not mad or imagining things, it really did exist! Horniman was a collector and now has a museum in South London. So I’m thinking it maybe had some reference to him? As well as your feet as it’s a bit of a strange name, especially in our now enlightened times!
It was also a make of tea at the time but I don't think this was a reference to either. Possibly the tea wins, if the horse was pulling a cart from house to house it would make it easy for the owner to hint to a housewife that a cup of tea would be well received.
Just to keep this thread alive! I was recalling this song with my mother (b. 1928), as I remember her mother, my grandmother, singing it to us as small children in the '50s. Alas, my mother's memory is not what it was (understatement...), but she seems to remember that her mother sang it to her as a small child, i.e. in the 1930's, and her recollection of the lyrics is pretty faultless, including the "Covered [all]/[o'er] in greasy mud" line. Nan was a Yorkshirewoman, b. 1908, and seemed to have an inexhaustible supply of songs that I never heard anywhere else!
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